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Bill Green

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About Bill Green

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    Midlands District Councillor

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  1. Bill Green

    A Class 2020

    This was posted on the main MYA site and on Facebook on the MYA Downwind page. The response so far has been very positive so for those that haven’t seen it, here it is: Yep 2020 is here, another year and the beginning of another decade. So apart from being 2020 whats the vision, if you’ll pardon the pun, to what's new, what’s happening and, Heavens to Betsy, what’s changing.Let's take it from the top, the A class has not one but two Class Captains, Mike Ewart and Bill Green. If you haven’t already met either one you soon will. Mike is the one with the beard and hair the other has minimal amounts of either. Fairly easy to distinguish. Both have been around radio sailing for more years than you can shake a stick at and both have the A and 6m Classes to heart. Why two? I hear you ask, that’s very easy to answer Mike and Bill have worked together to make something of the 6m class and propose doing similar things for the A. That is not to take anything away from Bob Conners, he did a cracking job for far longer than he was supposed to, the Class is richer for his work and we all owe him a huge debt of gratitude. Thanks Bob. The PRACC series dates for 2020 are all set and they are shown on the 2020 MYA racing calendar. ti help you we have also shown the National and District Championships and there is an event coming to a lake near you.Well that deals with what’s happening and parts of what’s new, so what’s the other bit?. One of the things about the PRACC series was that it didn’t consider what happens to the older boats. Most of them gather dust, are not sailed and look a bit past there sell by dates. Glories of a yester year. Not anymore, no more excuses, a Classic Class is introduced into all the A class events to get those boats out of the loft, the shed or the dark and out where they belong, out on the water competing. You no longer need the latest thing in carbon to compete, there are some beautiful A boats out there built in natures Hi Tech material that need a bit of TLC and a touch of bringing up to date. Now's the time to do it. Whats a Classic? that’s simple its design that is no longer competitive with the current premier fleet, it can be an Argo, a Sweet 6, a Priviteer, a John Lewis design etc. If you are not certain ask either Mike or Bill. Its not all about speed is about the history, the tradition, the grace of the class and we will talk more of the tradition later.OK the bit that’s left to mention is what’s changing. The class is seeking formal recognition as a Class Owners Group (COG) under the auspices of the MYA. When we know what is required we will be in touch with as many of the A Class skippers we know about to seek your input before confirming it. Its not a big leap at all, it's another step in the proposed changes to the MYA where the running of the classes is being devolved to the classes. In todays age that is the right thing to do. You may have seen the changes to the MYA Constitution and the COG’s are a fundamental part of that. Here is not the place to discuss that except to say that we believe is the right way to go for the class. A similar move has been made on behalf of the 6m Class.There was mention of history and tradition, so there is little something for you to think about. In 2023 the A Class is 100 years old, yes that’s right, 100 years. That is something to celebrate and we have started to think seriously about it. Nothing is concrete yet and we need your thoughts about about what, where and how, so don’t be shy let us know because we certainly will be asking the question through out this year. Several suggestions have already been made and the feelers are out and about. Talk to us.We would like to update the list of A Class skippers so we can contact you directly to let you know what’s up and coming. We will be in touch with the Club Secs to help us out or you can contact me direct through the MYA site using the A Class Registrar link. Hopefully we will see see you at the PRACC events and here’s to an interesting and challenging 2020 and see you on the water.Mike Ewart and Bill Green A Class Captains
  2. Dave, the answer to your question is simple, there ain’t any. It’s a piece of kit that has got to do a job and there are many and various types. They come in all shapes and sizes dependent on what you are using it in. Little ones for 36’s, big ones for A’s and anything in between. Roger Stollery published his design and you can ask him for a copy. The Clem Edwards ones are very accurate and easy to use but are like rocking horse p*** to find. Ken Jones made an effective one out of wire and again examples are hard to find. The there are the Fred Shepherd ones, moving carriages, and the Corby’s and there are of course the one offs and variations on a theme. A Vane gear is a piece of kit that you get used to, foibles and all, you will learn what it can and can’t do. The one thing for certain is that when you find one you can get on with you hang onto it and you enter into a deep meaningful relationship with it. You don't lend it out, you look after it and tend to it’s every need. Sorry I can’t point you in any other direction but if you are a good boy I’ll show you mine next time you’re down at Bournville. Now theres an offer that’s difficult to refuse.
  3. Just a quick note to say the RMG switch is IP65 rated, that means it will work in a wet environment but not designed to operate fully submerged. When returned to us it was working but it could not be guaranteed for how long hence replacement was the safe option.
  4. Mark At this moment in time there is no radio match racing for any class. Match racing is used by the free sailing folk as it is the only viable format for that form of racing. In the past the Race of Champions had a mix of Fleet and Match Racing but the event has not been held for a couple of years. At one time Match Racing under radio was feature of the embryonic 6m class as a means of expanding the class but there is no longer any need for it and as such is not in play. I have long advocated the inclusion of Match Racing into the racing calendar but there does not seem to be a will from either the classes or the majority of the competitors to want to include or participate in match racing. Bill
  5. An error has been pointed out to me in the Q&A section. The answer to Question 8 says that certificates will be lodged with the Race organiser, this in fact should read "may" not "will"
  6. This was received from Val Provoost and I was asked to post it here by Anthony Hello Tony, I got the thread on the Forum and ploughed my way through it. I have already had conversations with Bill and Peter over quite a time so I amwell acquainted with the problem. However there are several aspects of the whole postings from you as well as Bill and I see that some of the fundamental facts quoted are not correct . Forgive me for embarking on a long text here but I really feel that the whole sport is changing rapidly and if we are not spot on in dealing with IRSA now we will be left with a total dog's breakfast and deep divisions in the class. I will assume that you dont know my background so here is a short CV. I am a registered and qualified measurer forthe Royal Yachting Association and have been measuring since 1965 in several classes. As well as measuring at RYA events, I was an International Measurer for two International classes for 9 years and as the Chief measurers wife for a further 9 years.. WE were collectively called Ted the Tape and Val the Mate. After Ted died in 1987 I was doing the events, particularly the junior Champs, working with the olympic Squad members before the Games and measuring the Metre boats, 5.5,6,8 and 12m on top of all the general measurement work. Fo the 505 class I used to go to the annual meeting and present the class's rule changes for ratification. So you can understand why I can view this situation from a different perspective to most model sailors. In Bill's introductory comments in his post he refers to the relative responsibilities of the class assoc and IRSA but I dont think he is absolutely right. While he is right in defining the responsibilities of the ICA he misses the point that the ICA is an autonomous body that is effectively run by the owners, for the owners. IRSA becomes an enabling body that ensures that things are done inaccord with the World Sailing norm. The owners run the show and the only involvement of IRSA is to oversee that proceedural matters are done correctly,such as appropriate and competent venues forchampionships, racing rule appendicees are appropriate, etc, etc. As to the rules, it is entirely down the the ICA and it's members what rules they want and how they create them. IRA is only required to ratify them and the only changes they can advise is over perhaps rewording a sentence here and there and grammatical errors. As to the questions raised in Bill and your postings 1. An A boat is an A boat regardless of whether it is vane or radio 2. If they want any control over their future as vane sailors then a united class with an ICA is vital and stops any enforcement of rules that they do not want. At present the 2016 rule is in force but the ICA could create a later rule and get it ratified by IRSA. By the way the class is no longer 'International' as it does not meet the World sailing requirement of having fleets on 3+ continents. Now it is 'Classic'. FAQ 1.Now the rules themselves. Any boat built and presented for measurement since the rule came into force must be measured to it. However the ICA wouldhave the power to change the rule and get it ratified. 2. Both IRSA and the ICA would effectively shut the door on the Vanes and I think that would be a death knell. 3. Strength in numbers is always the best course of action and anyway, how can you amalagamate with a body you are already part of??? 4. The 'new' rules will only affect new boats. Old boats are measured to the rules in force at the time of build. Only any new rigs must comform. There is no question of grandfathering. I have a 1932 Vane A and if I choose to get her measured then I will insist that the rules in force at that time are used. I will also be seeking a set of healthy young men and a chiropractor to pick her up! The rest of the quesions are well covered in the posting. The move to form an ICA is absolutely correct and the only way forward and should include both disciplines. The ICA will hold the class's future in its hands and IRSA will no longer be able to enforce any rulechanges. I take the stand that the owners, being the investors in the class, should always be in charge of its future.That way situations such as we have now are far less likely to occur.
  7. The following is addressed to all A Class vane sailors, some of which may have already received and responded to the request to vote on the proposal. It is here to provide clarity and as a request to those that have not yet voted to do so. INTRODUCTION Peter Wiles and Bill Green have been nominated to IRSA by the MYA to a committee to look in to setting up an international class association (ICA) for the A Class. The group is chaired by an Australian, Glenn Dawson. The group has not yet started, but similar ICA's are being set up for the Marblehead and 10Rater classes and of course the IOM ICA works well. The prime role of the ICA's would appear to be the promotion of the class and involvement in major international events. It will also be a vehicle for the owners’ views to be communicated to IRSA and vice versa, again the full extent is yet to be defined. Each of the ICA’s reflect the class and the users. The work of those involved would be to establish the who, what where, when and how of the organisation and will include of the views of all owners. It could to be said that this ICA will benefit from work put in to create the former International Owners Association. Both Peter and Bill were involved in the previous IOA and are conscious of the lessons learned. One of the key elements in the initial thinking is that of the inclusion of the vane sailing community in to this group. The free sailing A Class community is strong in the UK and it is right that two primary questions should be asked:- 1. Can the free sailing A Class be included into the ICA? The answer to that is Yes. 2. Does the vane community want to be included into the ICA? That is down to the free sailing community to decide. Joining the ICA does carry with it the requirement to accept the IRSA 2016 A Class rule, which would be modified with a Free Sailing Supplement that has already been developed by the MYA Technical Team. There are disparate views, some of a viable future some steeped in history, some of uncertainty, most of which have been expressed in discussions in clubs. The questions asked and their answers are attached. What is clear, is that if the FS community does not join the ICA it will have to form an Association to administer its own rules, sailing and be self-sufficient within the MYA n a very similar manner to the new classes to the MYA. The Footy and Dragon classes are good examples of this. In the current climate, it is difficult to see how this would be achieved for the FS A Class. A poll has been taken of the free sailors to establish their view that resulted in a vote in favour of inclusion. However, the response was low, so to enable those that have not expressed a view the closing date is now extended to Friday 2 June. If you have already voted that vote still counts, however, if you have not already voted you are encouraged to do so. Attached is the document put forward by the FS Class Captain Anthony Warren please return your vote to him by the closing date of June 3. Votes received after that date will not be included. Also attached are the FAQ’s and the responses for your help and information. FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1; QUESTION Will it be necessary to accept the 2016 measurement rule if we join the Radio A’s in an International Class Association? ANSWER Yes. 2; QUESTION If we decide not to join, what would happen then? ANSWER It appears to be unlikely that the MYA would continue to support the ’94 rule if we refuse to accept the new rule. It would be necessary to form and manage a Vane A association, in the same way as other satellite classes. 3; QUESTION What is the benefit in accepting amalgamation with the RA’s in the new association? ANSWER The combined association will have more leverage in future negotiations with IRSA. There’s strength in numbers. There are also World Sailing regulations which controlling the relationship between a formally convened association and its parent body, IRSA. 4; QUESTION If we accept the ‘new’ measurement rules, how will grandfathering affect my existing Vane A? ANSWER Only if being measured to the 2016 Rule, boats measured to previous rules are covered by a “Grandfather” clause in the 2016 Rule. For most people, very little. Most boats initially measured under the ’94 rule would see only a minor difference in sail area if re-measured if anything. Some boats would be more seriously affected; some ‘Lightenings’, for example, have a stern bustle configuration which would need surgery to bring into line. For the most part, any required change would be minor. 5; QUESTION Would I have to have my boat re-measured? ANSWER Your boat would only need to be re-measured if you made any major alterations, for example fitting a new lead or a new and different mast. Generally, if the boat is kept within the plus or minus 100g weight bracket shown on the certificate there is no need to re-measure. 6; QUESTION Is the 2016 rule more complicated than the 94 rule? ANSWER Yes, and the rules and the measurement forms are more detailed as well. But in theory the rule calculates for the rating in the same manner. 7; QUESTION How will the new measurement supplement enabling the inclusion of Vane A’s work? ANSWER The supplement has been carefully developed by the MYA Technical Team to function almost exactly as the 94 rule. There are some minor differences, for example the spinnaker pole is measured from the face of the mast, rather than previous centre of the mast, which always had to be ‘guesstimated’. The supplement also deletes the tight restriction on QBL differences, thus allowing amateur-built boats a little more leeway. Also the restriction on sail sizes is removed. 8; QUESTION Will we have to accept multiple certificates, and will these cause problems for event measurers? ANSWER It is expected that competitors will be required to lodge their certificates two weeks prior to a major event, unless there are special circumstances. Spars, leads and fins will have to be marked to prove that they ‘belong’ to a specific certificate. For some owners who live away from the centres of A boat activity there is some advantage in multiple certificates in that different iterations can be formalised in a single trip to the measuring tank! 9; QUESTION Who will have control over the Free Sailing Yacht Racing Rules? ANSWER Once affiliated with IRSA, the MYA would keep control over the racing rules. 10; QUESTION If we accept amalgamation, who would continue to manage and control the measurement supplement? ANSWER This would continue to be the function of the MYA’s Tech Team, in conjunction with IRSA and in accordance with the regulations controlling the relationship with IRSA. See question 3. COPY OF THE EMAIL SENT TO ALL VANE SAILORS BY THE CC Dear Fleet Member, I understand from Bill Green that he and Peter Wiles have been nominated to IRSA by the MYA to sit on a small group to consider setting up a class committee for the A Class and whether Free Sailing wish to be associated with this endeavour. The Radio version of the A class through MYA is already of International status. Personally I feel and recommend that we should as Free Sailors apply to be associated too, using an A Class FS Supplement to 2016 IRSA. I see the advantages as below: • Rejoin the International community once more under IRSA (in lieu of the now defunct IYRU). • Adopt the new IRSA 2016 class rules and gain the benefit of regular updates and International administration. • Work towards International A class representation on an IRSA A class owners' association through UK committee members Peter Wiles and Bill Green with Australian Chairman Glenn Dawson. • A FS A Class Supplement also backed by Tech Team is under preparation. • Continuation with the existing MYA National FS Class Rule risks leaving this former International A Class, developmentally behind as a Free Sailing variant. Agree please to either 1 or 2 below replying to me no later than 2 June 2017 1. I wish to see the VA class remain as currently administered Nationally by the MYA. 2. I wish to see the VA class regain International status with an FS Supplement based on the current IRSA 2016 Class Rules. Any queries do give a ring or email as below Kind regards Anthony Warren Free Sailing Class Captain MYA Vane Racing Team (Chair) E: tony@anthonywarrenassociates.co.uk
  8. As an owner of both radio and vane 36's I have the following to add to the thoughts. I have no problem with the use of carbon for masts and spars. The class is the only class which is unrestricted except for mast/spar material it is logical to remove this restriction and make the Class free in all respects. This would make it the only class where those with a will and a wish to experiment with different configurations using appropriate materials can do so. I for one would welcome that opportunity to try. For those that sail in salt water there is the added bonus of not having to renew the alumninium stub mast because the base has corroded away. This class is an endangered species it needs a shot in the arm, it needs something to differentiate it from the herd, make it appeal to those who want to play. There is now little opportunity for those that want to play in the current popular classes for original thinking to happen. The rule relaxation on materials can have that effect which would be good for the classes sustainability. It is a Class that has a limited appeal, it will never challenge the IOM's and the M's of this world in the popularity stakes but to those that do sail them, do appreciate their little quirks and idiosyncratic ways. On the subject of who should approve this change and that's clearly with the owners, the days are long gone when these matters could only be changed at the AGM. Even when it was it was only the clubs that sailed the Class could vote on it so the current consultation and approval is entirely appropriate. Me, I commend the concept to the house.
  9. At the September Council meeting it was agreed that the Ranking points awarded to the IOM National should be increased to 200 points. After consideration and discussion within the Racing Regulation Team it has been realised that this has the potential to create problems for those who want to enter the proposed IOM World Championships in 2017. It has therefore been decided to revert to the pre September scoring of 100 points per eligible event. During 2016 the Racing Regulation Team will review both the scoring system and eligible events, in conjunction as many as we can, so that we can come to a conclusion for implementation in 2017. I'm sure that all will recognise this a sensible move and that time is required to arrive at a conclusion. As it has been said the Ranking System has served the UK well, it has provided us with many World and European Champions over lengthy period of time and it's not something that should be treated lightly. The intention is that early in the New Year a discussion will begin to garner opinion as to what changes, if any, shall be be made. This forum is the ideal vehicle to use to gather that information and I hope that all interested persons will positively contribute to that discussion. Bill Green MYA Racing Officer
  10. Please see below the CC's report which essentially deals with the outcome of the vane sailing questionnaire and the formation of the Vane Racing Team. Background In July 2015 MYA Chairman Keith Coxon July 2015 authorised the formation of a group to advance the cause of vane racing. This is the Vane Racing Team reporting to Council via the MYA Racing Officer, Bill Green. Our relationship to Council, the other teams and MYA Racing Officer is explained in Bill's chart attached 'Team Structure'. The summary questionaire report 2015 is also attached. (Note this and other associated papers can be viewed in the documents for the 2015 AGM) Top Priorities 1. Creation of a Vane Racing members National Database ​​ 2. National Questionnaire re the A Nationals & the future of racing 3. Clarification of the scoring system 4. Improvement of Race Management. 5. Clarification and revision of some current rules. 6. Future form of the League. 7. Encouragement of young participants. 1. The database of past, current and possible skippers, crew, officers and administrators is now complete, enabling the national fleet to be contacted in part or in whole by club or individual. It is set up to allow updating at intervals. 2. There is a proposal for a 4-day alternative to the current 6-day A class Nationals. The questionnaire conclusively found in favour of retaining the 6 day event. There were also useful indicators for the determination of future racing and its conduct. 3. There are two slightly different scoring systems only one of which is MYA approved. These are to be examined shortly and the parameters declared in their unification so that a single system may be used either digitally or manually. Add ons and simplifications need to be considered to speed up and make the result more accurate in use as appropriate. When satisfactorily concluded we will seek MYA approval for the new/revised system. 4. The Questionnaire gave useful guidance in the improvement of race management. Work is about to start to review and implement the guidance. 5. Clarification of some rules needs consideration and how to develop a body of previous judgement for consistency and guidance as aell as other matters. Work is proceeding on this now. 6. The League requires a re working for approval and is largely complete. The fixtures nationally have been established and are in the 2016 MYA racing programme Conclusions With a high take up on questionnaire responses it is encouraging to note that 25% of those currently active in racing have started within the last five years and 20% are in the younger age group. 9 new boats and 3 new designs are believed at this stage to be coming to the line for the A Nationals in Gosport 2016, an extremely high number for a relatively small fleet. The new club at Llandudno continues to have high attendance at the growing number of vane racing meetings. Birkenhead will once again offer vane racing by hosting the 36R nationals in 2016. An encouraging year! Stay in touch and contact your club captain Vane club captains: Martin Roberts​​Birkenhead Lisa Mckerchar​​Bournville Peter Whiteside​​Fleetwood Jacque Cook​​​Gosport Gareth Morgan​​Llandudno Anthony Warren Vane Racing Team Chair MYA Vane Racing Class Captain
  11. We have received notice that the A Class rule is being updated and we ask that all owners review the proposed rule changes and comment accordingly. There is a very short time frame to respond to IRSA so we need to seek your views. Please click on IRSA 2016 International Class Rules to view the documents. Please send your responses to stollery17@sky.com
  12. Mark Sorry for the confusion I should have pointed you to my report. It's attached there as the interim version Bill
  13. Mark The calendar is on the Knowledge Base with normal access Bill
  14. The Racing Team received representation from a number of the top skippers to move the date of the Ranking Event to be held at Two Islands in June as it was too close to the European Championships in Spain. Participation at Ranking events is important for those that want to sail at World and Euro levels and so discussions were held with the water users at Two Islands. After that a series of discussions with all affected at the site took place, the weekend of the 28/29 May was the only date that fitted with all concerned. It is a Bank Holiday weekend and we know that's something that is usually avoided for an event such as this but it is the best compromise we were able to achieve. As with all compromises it's not going to be ideal for everyone but it's the best that could be done given the circumstances. The MYA racing calendar has been amended to suit. Bill Green MYA Racing Officer
  15. Here is the CC's Report A Class ​Class Captain​Vernon Appleton The year has seen some good racing with the PRACC series being well supported but we would always welcome more entries. Next year we will have one fewer event as Manor Park are not running an event next year This year due to circumstances beyond the control of the club the Veterans championships date had to be moved because of work on the lake at Poole. The change was ratified by the MYA EC. I have travelled to most of the A boat events for some time and think that I have spoken to most of the A Boat fleet asking what they want. The class is setting up a committee to oversee the running of the PRACC series in the future. The Veterans Championships are earlier next year in the hope of avoiding the effects of weed and drought. The National Championships being at Poole. Thank you to all that have supported me in roll as Class Captain but now is the time for a new face to promote the class of these majestic yachts.
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