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You are watching the line for boats OCS.

At the far end of the line which is the Stb end a boat is seen to be OCS but has passed the wrong side of the start mark.

I know he should not be told that he is wrong side of the mark but should he be recalled as a premature starter.

Bear in mind that a boat starts when any part crosses the start line which in this case it has not.

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Hi Barry,

The boat is not OCS, as they have not started - do not comply with the definition of Start. The responsibility to start correctly lies with the skipper.

As RO, you should say nothing. If the boat does not come back to start and sails the course and finishes, you score them as a finisher and then protest them for not starting. The RO cannot dsq the boat, only a PC can do that. Also any other boat in the heat could protest them (for breaking R 28 and the definition of Start)

Other variations - they hit the mark - call the contact. Then it is up to them to do a penalty and start correctly - again the RO should protest after the finish if you see an error.

If R31.1 I flag 'Round the end' is in effect, the above answer stands - but look for them coming back outside and not dipping the line.

If R 31.3 Black Flag is in effect, then did they enter the 'triangle' before the start? - if Yes, them call them on that at the time.

John

John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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Hi Barry,

I think you are mixing up how to score a boat vs how to call it. The definition of Start requires that a boat cross the start line from the pre-start side. If they cross the line early you may call RECALL them. In my opinion, if they did not cross the line they have not started so there is no reason to recall them. I could not find any cases to clarify this.

There is an incident on video from the 2011 worlds where a boat #05 crosses the line and dips back, and is called over because she crossed the line and the I flag was flying. Note that subsequently, the boat dips the line but is not called ' #05 Clear' as she did not go around the end. Here the RO is keeping quiet and the absence of 'Clear' is the signal to the boat that something is still wrong.


My concern is that if you tell them they missed the line you may be found to have given outside assistance.

John

John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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Quote from John.

''The definition of Start requires that a boat cross the start line from the pre-start side''.

Hi John, as you know the definition of a start requires that a boat crosses the start line after the starting signal.

So a boat that is OCS has not started wether crossing the line or not.

I think that for a boat to be recalled she should be required to have crossed the starting line from the prestart side but alas it appears that this is not a requirement.

There certainly seems to be a grey area here.

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Hi Barry,

I have created a couple of diagrams based on your original question.

The start signal is at P3 in each case.

In bad start 1, Green is outside of the line and ahead of the line at the gun. Should he be Recalled?

In bad start 2, green is outside the line but behind the line at the gun. Should he be Recalled?

Should the answer be different for case 1 and case 2?

My answer would be as written above and I would treat both the same - with silence.

John

736264304_badstart2.jpg.5f796e8629eb673401cdda1a1512dff3.jpg

963576992_badstart1.jpg.b0b937df255c4a73de8a939d19beaf47.jpg

John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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In example 1 Green is clearly on the course side of the starting line at the start signal. It is irrelevant whether she has previously crossed the line or not. She is OCS. She should be recalled under rule E3.5

In example 2 Green is not OCS, as she is clearly behind the starting line at the starting signal. Rule E3.5 does not apply, no hail. Subsequently, she fails to start. No hail, but Green should be scored DNS.

There is no grey area - if a boat is on the course side of the start line at the starting signal she is OCS and rule E3.5 applies.

Gordon

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An interesting question? I am not sure if there is an official interpretation.

For a 'P' flag start I would recommend recalling any boat that is:

partly over the line at the starting signal

any boat immediately to windward of the start line

any boat that clearly above the extensions to the start line unless they were clearly already sailing back to start

Gordon

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Hi

In bad start 1 Green is is to windward of the start, but has not sailed the course (as she has not passed through the start line) Are you sure Gordon that you should call a recall for that boat. Should the boat not be allowed time to return or sail the incorrect course and then be protested for not sailing the course?

The second bad start is the same but "clearly" sailing the wrong course and should be protested after finish for not sailing the course.

If the green boat in bad start 1 is recalled can another skipper or skippers protest for outside help?

Regards

Graham

(LEARNER)

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I suppose the only question to be asked is ''is green on the course side of the start line''.

I would say yes and recall him.

You would not be telling him that he was not sailing the course.

How he returned and started would be entirely up to him.

If he still went to weather of the mark then let him sail the course and protest him.

If he returned then started correctly then he is a very lucky boy.

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surely the extensions of the line are not the line if it is bounded by an outer distance and inner distance marker which in effect are what the bouys marking the line are doing, maybe the SI's should make clear that the bouys are ODM and IDM repectively, which if they are telling someone they have not crossed the start line is clearly giving outside assistance, in full size sailing if you are OCS they dont tell you who it is just that someone is

Mike Ewart

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Might be worth quoting the rule (smile)...

RRS E3.5 Individual Recall

Rule 29.1 is changed to:

When at a boat’s starting signal any part of the boat is on the course side of the starting line [...]

A purist might wish it said, "on the course side of the starting line *or its extensions*", but I think its meaning is reasonably clear as it is.

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I don't think it's a good idea to start extending start lines in this or other similar scenarios. I would have thought the start line is just that and the triangle it forms with the windward mark is the Course Side. Extending this line can just cause additional problems when trying to help skippers start fairly and could cause greater confusion when starting penalties such as 'I' 'Z' or Back flags are introduced.

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"the triangle it forms with the windward mark is the Course Side"

I think not for E3.5 or RRS 29.1. In the "bad start 1" diagram, green is on the course side of the starting line. Outside the triangle, but on the course side.

"Course side" is not a defined term in the RRS. So it has its "ordinary" meaning.

It may be worth quoting the I, Z, or black flag rules.

30.1 I Flag Rule

[...] any part [...] is on the course side of the starting line or one of its extensions during the last minute before her starting signal

30.2 Z Flag Rule

[...] no part [...] shall be in the triangle [...] during the last minute before her starting signal

30.3 Black Flag Rule

[...] no part [...] shall be in the triangle [...] during the last minute before her starting signal

Rule 30.1 uses the same words as 29.1, making the penalty region clearer by mentioning extending the starting line, and bans dipping the line.

Rules 30.2 and 30.3 introduce a new idea for a penalty. They talk about a triangle *in the period leading up to the start*.

The start itself is the same for 30.2 and 30.3 as it is for 30.1, and it is 29.1/E3.5 which tells us about recalling (giving information to) a boat that (it) is on the course side.

The point of the triangle is to define a region where a penalty can be applied if a boat is found to be in that region during some specified period. The triangle region does not define what is "course side", and I do not think it is intended to define "course side".

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It isn't very clear is it! As like myself there is a lot of thinking going on.

It could be thought that under rule 29.1 A normal start with no Penalty flags being displayed that the course side is just the Triangle as there's no mention of extensions to the line at the start signal. Therefore, only if a boat is within this triangle is she deemed OCS and should return to the pre start side or one of its extensions. Thats how I would interpret 29.1 without trying to add additional clauses and confusion. Therefore, I believe there is no individual recall necessary as the boat is yet to start.

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We must be careful on quoting rules and read the book especially the bits that refer to Radio sailing appendix e and in my rules bookBryan Willis 2013 to 2016 rule 30.2 is deleted or so it says.

If you are prepared to allow a yacht which is behind any extensions of the line to start without crossing between to bouys marking the line, then I would agree a boat forward of the line and not between to bouys can be called over, if not keep stum and let the results show sailed incorrect course.

Mike Ewart

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I think some of this discussion is moving in the wrong direction. For example the concept of the ‘forward triangle’ only exists when the rule invoking it is in effect – otherwise it does not exist. And to suggest that a boat can start outside the start marks over an extension of the line is ignoring that marks have required sides.

The situation as shown in Bad start 1 diagram is essentially unique to RC sailing as it involves depth perception. In big boat racing, there would be a committee boat on station and Yellow, passing the wrong side of the committee boat would likely be ignored and no Recall initiated. I have seen many examples in big boat racing, where a boat attempting to barge in, and getting shut out and luffing up outside the committee boat ahead of the gun and I have never seen the boat given an individual recall.

I think that the best answer may be to clarify the rule for RC sailing by adding ‘starting line and its extensions’ to appendix E 3.5 in the next RRS cycle. Another alternative is to create Bad Start 1 as a Case for the Case Book as clear interpretation of the ‘intent’ of the rule.

John

910037515_BigBoatbadstart.jpg.4c80c32cf8a127eb493447605ec820bb.jpg

John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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Another issue of rules built around full size racing being applied to our sport, in full size it would not be considered that anyone could pass the wrong side of a start mark and not know it. Why would we wish this to happen, have a fellow competitor sail the race and then be advised they didn't start, are we that keen to gain an extra place? A competitor called over has to go back and re-start and so would someone called who missed the limit mark, surely a fairer situation than knowingly letting them think they have started when they haven't. As with other discussions of this type I believe more allowance has to be made for the fact that we sail remote from our boats and lack the visual advantages of our full size colleagues.

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I agree that at Club level helpful advice spoken in the right tone and at the right time can make the sport more enjoyable. But when it becomes a bit more serious then making such allowances could prove disastrous and lead to a lot of bad feeling. For instance in this particular case how could you prove the skipper made a genuine mistake and not just opted to stay clear of the starting pack at a favoured end!

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Not sure I understand, what is there to prove? where would be the advantage even above the pack at the favoured end to sail the wrong side of the start mark and be called back? We happily call someone OCS, call for contact with a mark or other boat but are unable to tell them they have not started correctly. Are there further repercussions of this? Does a boat which has not started have the same rights as those that have?

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  • 4 weeks later...

Have not looked in to this forum for some time.

To reply to Graham's post of 3rd Feb he wrote:

'In bad start 1 Green is is to windward of the start, but has not sailed the course (as she has not passed through the start line) Are you sure Gordon that you should call a recall for that boat. Should the boat not be allowed time to return or sail the incorrect course and then be protested for not sailing the course?

The second bad start is the same but "clearly" sailing the wrong course and should be protested after finish for not sailing the course.

If the green boat in bad start 1 is recalled can another skipper or skippers protest for outside help?'

1. If the boat is to windward of the start line then she is clearly OCS and should be recalled. This is a service rendered by the Race Officer to that boat and all others competing, as it should get her out of their way! The hail is required by the rules and is not outside help. If Green was already clearly sailing back to start correctly I would recommend not hailing, or if there are several numbers hailing her last.

2 In bad start 2 Green is not on the course side at the start so no hail. However, you are correct she should be protested under rule 28, but only when she finishes. Before that she can correct her error.

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