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Wndward boat keep clear ISAF Case Book 60


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Downwind leg. Wind gusting 18 -25 knots

Same two boats as mentioned in previous post are now running downwind on stbd with the wind five degrees on the stbd quarter.

The overtaking leeward boat is two boat lengths ahead and one and a half boat lengths to leeward.

Both boats are on the plane.

Without warning the leeward boat broaches and is planted squarely in front of the windward boat.

The time from the initiation of the brooch to contact is two seconds max.

The race observer calls contact.

The leeward boat hails windward boat keep clear.

The windward boat hails time to keep clear.

After second hail by the observer the windward boat does a penalty turn.

Does ISAF Case Book 60 cover this situation?

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Notwithstanding it this is in the case book or otherwise I believe the rule to be clear as clear can be.


From your description :- The overtaking LEEWARD BOAT is two boat lengths ahead and one and a half boat lengths to leeward.

The boat that was the overtaking is now clear ahead and the much misunderstood rule 17 - Obligation to keep clear is not applicable.

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE

If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to LEEWARD of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail ABOVE HER PROPER course while they remain on the same tack AND OVERLAPPED within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

The PROPER COURSE in this case being directly to the mark, it being a run. i.e. No silly luffing and being a nuisance

11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED

When boats are on the same tack and OVERLAPPED, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

i.e. No silly bearing away and being a nuisance

12 ON THE SAME TACK, NOT OVERLAPPED

When boats are on the same tack and not overlapped, a boat clear astern shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead.

i.e. No sailing up the back of the boat and being a nuisance trying to take the boat in front's wind. Just pass to leeward like a gentleman

So clearly these rules obligate both skippers in some way and to behave in particular way and not to bang into each other. It is similarly clear that neither rule take precedence or negates the other i.e. they are all in force.


That the:-

• Wind is gusting 18 -25 knots

• Both boats are on the plane.

• Without warning the leeward boat broaches and is planted squarely in front of the windward boat.

• The time from the initiation of the brooch to contact is two seconds max.

I would suggest has no real bearing on the matter does it if you search your heart?.

That the leeward boat hails windward boat keep clear or :-

• The windward boat hails time to keep clear.

• After second hail by the observer the windward boat does a penalty turn.

The skipper of the boat that was overtaken should realise that the roles have reversed and he is now obligated to keep clear particularly if he gain ground on the boat –

It sounds like there was a lot of chatting going on when there should have been and little more stick work -

The Observer is simply an observer - he/it/she does not decide who is at fault or owes a penalty unless by agreement your CLUB has decided that the Observer is a Judge of Fact and can decide on the spot as it were. - But it is Sunday and so who needs the agro - do turn - mostly for not reading the rules or probably not having a copy .

We used to call Mast Astern in the good old days of real sailing to signal the end of the obligation to keep clear and the end of luffing rights of the boat attacking.

No doubt John Ball and you will disagree.- But this has happened to me at an inter- National Event and I lost the protest ( I claimed no opportunity ) - Messers Bantock and Zammit will confirm this. And quite rightly ...

Dave

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Hi again,

Again Case 60 is not a good precedent for this. If the contact occurred in the zone, then normally, the inside boat is entitled to mark room and the windward/astern boat has to keep clear. However this is more complex as the definition of Room, includes the phrase - in the existing conditions - which suggests give lots of room in gusty planing conditions - but it also requires the ROW boat to be 'seamanlike' - and a bad broach may not fit that part of the definition. However R 21 again exonerates the mark room boat specifically for breaking R 16.

John

John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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Now looking at the diagram, I think that Windward was giving mark room as required by R 18, and Leeward is not protected under R21 in this case - perhaps Gordon will comment on this.

John

John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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I did some more reading - Case 75 is very interesting. While not an exact duplicate, there are some interesting implications.

The other rule to consider is R 18.4. As Leeward must gybe to round the mark, R 18.4 may apply. When the leeward boat broaches, does she move further away from the mark? If Yes, then she breaks R 18.4.

John

John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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Sorry everyone - please ignore the last three posts - I thought the situation was nearing the downwind mark - my mistake. I would delete them, but the forum does not offer that option.

On re-reading the description, this is an R 16 situation and Ahead/leeward is ROW and has to allow behind/windward room to stay clear when Leeward suddenly alters course.

John

John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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My supposition for what it is worth is that the windward boat must be given room and opportunity to keep clear if the windward boat had attempted to miss the broached boat and failed then he is not at fault if no attempt was made then I think he is at fault

Mike Ewart

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You should try to avoid as fast as you can react - if you do so and fail to stay clear, then the other boat broke R 16.

The rules don't care which way you turn to avoid - but luffing is usually faster and more effective in these conditions.

John

John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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It always happens so very quickly. That is why you must look forward and plan a little.

But I sense that you are desperate to be absolved / forgiven of your sin of colliding with another boat. And perhaps desperate to find some hidden technicality that absolves you of all culpability in the incident.

Well I am sure you were forgiven

This is a GAME, there is a new one next week – get over it – do a turn if you feel you wrong. Don’t do one if you feel you were not and explain/discuss your decision after the race.

Read the rules as they are written – they are in English and do not need interpretation. All of the ISAF Case Book and Interpretation is a nonsense for which radio sailing is, in my opinion , becoming ever the poorer for.


114

.

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Far from the case. I do not know what happens at your club but at mine rule adherance is sadly lacking at times. With regard my previous posts as well as this one I discuss the incidents with the race officer concerned and or the other boats involved and inform them that I will seek clarification on this particular forum.

My last post saw a comment that the model yachting addendum should possibly be reworded as a result of my post.

As Sailing Secretary of a Sailing Club that provides some of the very best yacht and dinghy racing in the UK and a PRO of such events for a number of years it is the advancement of the sport that is my concern. Big Boat skippers and tacticians - mostly professionals - are well aware of rule intricacies; that is their job. Club sailors who race should have the basics. But most importantly, even in a Tuesday morning OAP race with no observers if you break a rule then you do a turn without being called by any of your fellow competitors.

My addage has allways been - Keep out of Trouble.

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Malcolm

I should like to pick up on your comment:-

Rule adherence at your club but at is sadly lacking at times.

I might suggest that it is no worse than at most other clubs. I visit a number of clubs throughout the year and because of my work in a few countries and get to I hear some very funny calls.

• Keep up No 11 from a windward boat - ( No 11 thinks to himself - Sorry, am I going too slow again - I must speed up.. )

• There is No Water in there No 11 – from a boat that is so wide of the mark that busses and trains are diving thought on the inside - ( No 11 thinks to himself - The water seems deep enough.. what is he on about - I kept clear of him )

• Starboard No 11 from a boat on port - ( No 11 thinks to himself - Have I got port and starboard confused again.. )

• You tacked in my water No 11 - ( No 11 thinks to himself - UHH .. )

• You spoilt my race No 11 - ( No 11 thinks to himself - Oh good that was my intention.. )

And my personal favourite

• What are you doing No 11 - ( No 11 thinks to himself - it obvious Fred - making a total pigs ear of ... )

I believe there to be good reason is for this –

Mostly no one actually wants to discuss an incident / collision after a race in a constructive and friendly way. If a racing incident is discussed, it invariably ends up in confrontation; it becomes a defence of honour.

Try – discussing incidents – with a copy of the RRS rules open – not interpretations of the tiny print version purplish by RYA—The Big Print version you and need part 2 and the definitions.

Make the penalty a little less onerous – like buying the biscuits next week.

And don’t lose sight that this is just a GAME in spite of what the Puritans might say.

We do not have this problem at OUR Club - we simply flog transgressors to an inch of their lives then poke their eyes out.

.


.

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  • 2 weeks later...

If a boat clear ahead changes course in such a way that the boat clear astern is not given rule to keep clear then the clear ahead boat breaks rule 16 and should take a penalty. The keep clear boat must manoeuvre promptly, which includes the time needed by the competitor controlling the boat to analyse the situation. and react accordingly.

Gordon

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