Derek Priestley Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 I prefer to race rather than talking about it!! BUT for years I've said "Hold your course" to Starbord shouts to re assure the stbd boat that I've seen them & that I know ther're there AND that I intend to avoid them!!Now, back to racing for me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erick Brunswick Posted November 15, 2018 Author Share Posted November 15, 2018 Hold your course Laurie - Mike is taking avoiding action Notice the angle of the rudder ( not in the water ) OH Protest 69 !!! - You changed course !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ball Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 Hi Eric, not sure what kind of point you are trying to make here - just being facetious perhaps? The rules are quite clear - and the hail of "hold your course" has no import. The definition of Keep Clear says in part Keep Clear A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat (a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and, And RRS 10 says Port shall keep clear of Starboard. So 90 can protest all she wants - but based on that photo, she will lose the protest. John John BallIOM CAN 307 (V8)In my private capacity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaurieB Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 Hello ErickThank you for posting this, they do say a picture is worth a thousand words, but you really should have introduced yourself on Sunday, it would also have been lovely to meet Doris.Coincidentally my good friend Dave was racing too, you could have taken the opportunity to say hello to him.Kind regardsLaurie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Holliday Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 This discussion raises two questions in my mind, 1) the phrase "alters course" implies a conscious input from the skipper, should a gust induced lift be regarded as changing course? Without accurate observing from a third party this will always degenerate into an argument with no winner 2) at what point is the ROW boat too close to alter course whilst still giving room? Again this is a judgement call where both skippers involved will have their own (differing) opinion. The reality of the situation is that the give way boat has put himself in a very vulnerable position and is trying to use the nuances of the rules to get himself out! Moral of this story - talk to each other in plenty of time and if you are the give way vessel be prepared to tack or duck whilst you still have time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ball Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 Hi David, I have tried to diagram your incident. I think your reference to boat B was really boat A. If not, then we need more info about the positioning of B. Yellow is boat A, entitled to mark room,gybes to stbd to round the mark then once past the mark, tacks to port. (Note that Yellow's mark room under R 18.2.b ends as she was given room and had past the mark) Green is the 'dreaded 11'. She gives mark room to Yellow, and follows Yellow around the mark, but on stbd, hardens up close to the mark, and inside Yellow. and is forced to tack to port to avoid Yellow when Yellow tacks in front of her. Basically, this looks like Yellow breaks R 10 by tacking to port while Green is on stbd. Yellow is not entitled to any room to keep clear under R 15 as she tacked to port and caused the change in ROW by her own action. Another possibility but I cannot tell from your description, but if Yellow was futher ahead and had completed her tack to port, and then Green on stbd altered course such that Yellow was not given room to keep clear, then Green would break R 16.1. John John BallIOM CAN 307 (V8)In my private capacity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 John, You have it in one with one minor correction, it is not the Dreaded 11 it is the Evil 11 And yes .. forgive the reference to Boat B , it should be Boat A There was a boat B following about 2 boat lengths back and we will get onto that. You seem to disagree with the findings of the Protest Committee in that you find Evil 11 did not breach any rule. The issue as to if there was a contact or not is really going to determine if Boat A should be disqualified or not. Again - should boat A be disqualified. the rest of the story or to Quote To LOOK at the Bigger Picture The points difference between Evil 11 and Boat B at this time is 4 points to Boat B. If Evil 11 is disqualified this will extend Boat B lead to 16 points If Boat A is disqualified then Boat B moves up 1 point to 5 ahead and Evil 11 is the looser Boat A is not really in the hunt for an Event top 3 placing. So having Boat A disqualified does not suit the Evil 11 hence the denial of any contact since he is very sure that he had not broken any rule and .... the hidden video head camera would show a mast contact. But spurred on by Boat B, who has everything to gain and nothing to lose, Boat A sets forth with a Protest... one that he can only loose , unless Evil 11 saves Boat A from disqualification by denying the contact. The Protest Committee dismissed the protest for lack of evidence of a contact. The outcome Evil 11 wanted Evil 11 passed Boat A to take first place in the heat It was a really good day of fiendly sailing Come to round 2 on Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ball Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 Dave Alston said: The issue as to if there was a contact or not is really going to determine if Boat A should be disqualified or not. Again - should boat A be disqualified. If Green (Evil 11) on stbd had to alter course to avoid Yellow on port then Yellow has failed to keep clear and breaks R10 P/S. There does not have to be contact. So in a protest hearing, Yellow should lose. The PC could find that there was sufficient room and that Green did not have to alter course, and dismiss the protest. This is a likely outcome if Green did not protest Yellow. If Green chooses to tack to port to avoid Yellow, then Green is not obligated to protest (she 'may' protest). John John BallIOM CAN 307 (V8)In my private capacity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ball Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 Dave, I have a question - under which rule did Boat A protest you? John John BallIOM CAN 307 (V8)In my private capacity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ball Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 Dave I found the answer in your post - But happily Boat A protested the evil boat 11 a) Boat 11 Infringed upon Boat A by not allowing sufficient Room for A to TACK And my comment is that there is no obligation for a trailing boat to provide a leading boat for 'room to tack' except at an obstruction (R 19 and R 20). Was there an obstruction? Did A hail for 'room to tack'? John John BallIOM CAN 307 (V8)In my private capacity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 No obstructions ahead. Boat A should have waited for Evill 11 to tack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaRRy Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 You do have to wonder if sailing has got itself into a minute detail of over complicated rules. The current FISLY ISRR rules (or in English the land yachting equivalent to water based sailing rules ) which were historically based on the water based rules consist of 28 pages (excluding class specific appendices) https://www.fisly.org/include/index.php?id=211 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darin Ballington Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 On 29/01/2020 at 06:39, Donald Cave said: MODEL RADIO CONTROL YACHTING. As I read through many of the arguments; debates; and points of order regarding racing rules I find my self in a situation that leaves me no alternative to ask the question "Why !" are so many people involved in model yachting complaining about the complexity of rules requiring additional instruction , tuterage laced with addition course maps, diagrams and debates, on the topic, there are books on the subject of definitions one with over 260 pages and numerous video on the rules topic, which ,if you step back for a moment, to realize the complexity required but not desired to compete a sailboat around a few marker cans. The popular games of Soccer , Cricket and many events in the Olympics are not so heavily rule burdened. What make this situation which has grown out of proportion with respect to Model Radio Control Yachting is the gross inconsistency caused by the reality of numerous rule amendments affecting model yachting designed to cover ever eventuality becomes impractical I am not here to" Poison the Well" I am here to defend model yachting against complication and misunderstand and mis interpretation affecting model sailboat racing. Why can they not get it right ! I have come to the conclusion that model yachting while racing need their own suitable rules / guidelines which to date are not or don't appear to be forthcoming at time in the near future. Secondly again I ask my self again "Why! "only to discover that model yachting now having an international following does not have a representative or representatives on "the racing rules of sailing advisory body." The age of computers and un maned guided vehicles has now become our future. I see no reason" Why! " we ,the model yachting fraternity should not create our own simple international rules and guidelines, understandable in any language and not requiring additional tuition ,books, videos, and tutorials as sated above, to effectively compete in the sport in our advanced society. Lots of questions that others will be able to expand on but: 1. The radio sailing community has a say on the RRS via the IRSA and proposes amendments to the relevant WS committee. 2. Without the use of an international body like WS there would be different localised rules which would inhibite any international events and growth of the sport. 3. Why reinvent the wheel, the RRS cover almost all of the elements we encounter and the Appendix E deals with the variations we need; just imagine the wasted time and differences of opinion if we tried to organise them oursleves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Reynolds Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 I don't think this problem is caused by the rules, more by the cumudgenly attitude of a section of the competitors, i am sure if the rule book was reduced to one simple rule there would still be shouted augments at the pond side. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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