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Erick Brunswick

Hold your Course

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Well compared to some of the other classes a competitive six is generally a lot cheaper, unfortunately they are a bit rare on the ground at the moment keep an eye on the Six Metre website


Mike Ewart

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The rules are clear - a hail of 'Hold your Course' from a port tack boat has no meaning under the Racing Rules of Sailing. The port tack boat must keep clear (RRS 10) and the starboard tack boat IF she changes course must give a keep clear boat room to keep clear (RRS 16.1).

Repeated hails that are meaningless or misleading are a clear breach of recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play and breaks rule 2, Fair Play. Protest!

Gordon

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Another beautiful day two weeks ago and we , that is Doris and I, went to a different pond to watch the IOM boats sail in an open competition. These tend to be far more exciting and well worth the drive up the A##. Thanks to you fellows we now have a better idea of what is taking place.

And true to form the Hold you Course popped up from the same person we first encountered using this call some months ago but this time as a Post-incident CALL

1/ Boat A - Starboard -Tack running to the Mark about 20 metres away

2/ Boat B - Port-Tack beating away from the Mark.

3/ Boat B was on a collision course with Boat A ( or the converser )

4/ Boat A was sailing a reasonable course directly to the Mark

5/ Boat B, Port-Tack showed NOT inclination to avoid boat A, Starboard-Tack and

6/ When they had converged to about 2 metres between them Boat A swung to avoid what he clearly has determined to be an imminent collision.

7/ Boat B did not alter course at all during the whole sequence of events.

8/ Sadly and almost predictably they collided

the CALL from Boat B - Protest Boat A - You Altered Coarse.

Boat B even went as far as lodging a Protest convinced he was fully vindicated. We could not give evidence even though we were in the Control Area as we were not Racing.

I understand that in a magnanimous gesture Boat B withdrew his Protest - but was not penalised

Mmmmmmmm

We both thought - what a good tactic.

When in the wrong - Protest

Then in the spirit of Keeping thing going - Withdraw the Protest

The Race Officer is relieved had forgets that NO penalties were taken and the Incident goes Unresolved

Boat A was well put out of the Race and relegated to the next fleet.

Job done

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I noted a comment in this tread inferring that those sailing a 6 Metre were not prone to utilising such tactics and they were far more affable skippers.

Doris and I see the same faces appear at these Events sailing:-

DF65

DF94

6 Metre

IOM

And there is virtually no difference except for the speed and the ability to turn , tack and gybe.

Perhaps if the IOM Class was restricted to a 20mm wide rudder and half the sail area the approach might be similarly to a 6 metre

mnm

We are going to watch the 36" Nationals this coming Sunday. I understand the tea and cake is good there

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Well Mike, I’ve got myself a Romanza and I am doing my first club race this morning. We’ll see if the application of rules differs in any way! Looking forward to seeing you out there.

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I prefer to race rather than talking about it!! BUT for years I've said "Hold your course" to Starbord shouts to re assure the stbd boat that I've seen them & that I know ther're there AND that I intend to avoid them!!

Now, back to racing for me!!

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Hi Eric, not sure what kind of point you are trying to make here - just being facetious perhaps?

The rules are quite clear - and the hail of "hold your course" has no import.

The definition of Keep Clear says in part

Keep Clear A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat

(a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take

avoiding action and,

And RRS 10 says Port shall keep clear of Starboard.

So 90 can protest all she wants - but based on that photo, she will lose the protest.

John


John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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Hello Erick

Thank you for posting this, they do say a picture is worth a thousand words, but you really should have introduced yourself on Sunday, it would also have been lovely to meet Doris.

Coincidentally my good friend Dave was racing too, you could have taken the opportunity to say hello to him.

Kind regards

Laurie

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This discussion raises two questions in my mind, 1) the phrase "alters course" implies a conscious input from the skipper, should a gust induced lift be regarded as changing course? Without accurate observing from a third party this will always degenerate into an argument with no winner 2) at what point is the ROW boat too close to alter course whilst still giving room? Again this is a judgement call where both skippers involved will have their own (differing) opinion. The reality of the situation is that the give way boat has put himself in a very vulnerable position and is trying to use the nuances of the rules to get himself out! Moral of this story - talk to each other in plenty of time and if you are the give way vessel be prepared to tack or duck whilst you still have time.

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Hi David,

I have tried to diagram your incident. I think your reference to boat B was really boat A. If not, then we need more info about the positioning of B.

Yellow is boat A, entitled to mark room,gybes to stbd to round the mark then once past the mark, tacks to port. (Note that Yellow's mark room under R 18.2.b ends as she was given room and had past the mark)

Green is the 'dreaded 11'. She gives mark room to Yellow, and follows Yellow around the mark, but on stbd, hardens up close to the mark, and inside Yellow. and is forced to tack to port to avoid Yellow when Yellow tacks in front of her.

Basically, this looks like Yellow breaks R 10 by tacking to port while Green is on stbd. Yellow is not entitled to any room to keep clear under R 15 as she tacked to port and caused the change in ROW by her own action.

Another possibility but I cannot tell from your description, but if Yellow was futher ahead and had completed her tack to port, and then Green on stbd altered course such that Yellow was not given room to keep clear, then Green would break R 16.1.

John

1130345446_leewardroundingtostbd.jpg.97727d85bd45efacef19ea57174d7d42.jpg


John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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John,

You have it in one with one minor correction, it is not the Dreaded 11 it is the Evil 11

And yes .. forgive the reference to Boat B , it should be Boat A

There was a boat B following about 2 boat lengths back and we will get onto that.

You seem to disagree with the findings of the Protest Committee in that you find Evil 11 did not breach any rule.

The issue as to if there was a contact or not is really going to determine if Boat A should be disqualified or not.

Again - should boat A be disqualified.

the rest of the story or to Quote To LOOK at the Bigger Picture

The points difference between Evil 11 and Boat B at this time is 4 points to Boat B.

If Evil 11 is disqualified this will extend Boat B lead to 16 points

If Boat A is disqualified then Boat B moves up 1 point to 5 ahead and Evil 11 is the looser

Boat A is not really in the hunt for an Event top 3 placing.

So having Boat A disqualified does not suit the Evil 11 hence the denial of any contact since he is very sure that he had not broken any rule and .... the hidden video head camera would show a mast contact.

But spurred on by Boat B, who has everything to gain and nothing to lose, Boat A sets forth with a Protest... one that he can only loose , unless Evil 11 saves Boat A from disqualification by denying the contact.

The Protest Committee dismissed the protest for lack of evidence of a contact. The outcome Evil 11 wanted

Evil 11 passed Boat A to take first place in the heat

It was a really good day of fiendly sailing

Come to round 2 on Sunday.

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Dave Alston said:

The issue as to if there was a contact or not is really going to determine if Boat A should be disqualified or not.

Again - should boat A be disqualified.

If Green (Evil 11) on stbd had to alter course to avoid Yellow on port then Yellow has failed to keep clear and breaks R10 P/S. There does not have to be contact. So in a protest hearing, Yellow should lose.

The PC could find that there was sufficient room and that Green did not have to alter course, and dismiss the protest. This is a likely outcome if Green did not protest Yellow.

If Green chooses to tack to port to avoid Yellow, then Green is not obligated to protest (she 'may' protest).

John


John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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Dave I found the answer in your post -

But happily Boat A protested the evil boat 11

a) Boat 11 Infringed upon Boat A by not allowing sufficient Room for A to TACK

And my comment is that there is no obligation for a trailing boat to provide a leading boat for 'room to tack' except at an obstruction (R 19 and R 20).

Was there an obstruction?

Did A hail for 'room to tack'?

John


John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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No obstructions ahead. Boat A should have waited for Evill 11 to tack.

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You do have to wonder if sailing has got itself into a minute detail of over complicated  rules.

The current FISLY ISRR rules (or in English the land yachting equivalent to water based sailing rules ) which were historically based on the water based rules consist of 28 pages (excluding class specific appendices)

https://www.fisly.org/include/index.php?id=211

 

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On 29/01/2020 at 06:39, Donald Cave said:

MODEL  RADIO CONTROL YACHTING.

As I read through many of the arguments; debates; and points of order regarding racing rules I find my self in a situation that leaves me no alternative  to ask the question "Why !" are so many people involved in model yachting complaining  about the complexity of rules requiring additional instruction , tuterage  laced with addition course maps, diagrams and debates, on the topic, there are books on the subject  of definitions one with over 260 pages  and numerous video on the rules topic, which ,if you step back for a moment, to realize  the complexity required  but not desired  to compete a sailboat  around a few  marker cans.

 The popular games of    Soccer , Cricket and many  events  in the  Olympics are not so heavily rule burdened.

What make  this situation which has grown out of proportion  with respect to  Model Radio Control  Yachting is the  gross  inconsistency caused  by the reality of numerous rule amendments affecting model yachting designed to cover ever eventuality becomes impractical  I am not here to"  Poison the  Well" I am here to  defend  model yachting against complication and misunderstand and mis interpretation affecting  model sailboat racing.

Why can they not get it right !

 I have come to the conclusion that model yachting while racing need their own suitable rules / guidelines which to date are not or don't appear to be forthcoming at time in the near future.

Secondly  again I ask my self again "Why! "only to discover  that model yachting now having an international  following does not have  a representative  or representatives  on "the racing rules of sailing  advisory body."

 The age of computers and un maned guided vehicles has now become our future.

I see no reason" Why! " we ,the model yachting fraternity should not  create our  own simple international rules and guidelines, understandable in any language  and not requiring additional tuition ,books, videos, and tutorials as sated above, to effectively compete in the sport in our  advanced society.

Lots of questions that others will be able to expand on but:

1. The radio sailing community has a say on the RRS via the IRSA and proposes amendments to the relevant WS committee.

2. Without the use of an international body like WS there would be different localised rules which would inhibite any international events and growth of the sport.

3. Why reinvent the wheel, the RRS cover almost all of the elements we encounter and the Appendix E deals with the variations we need; just imagine the wasted time and differences of opinion if we tried to organise them oursleves!

 

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I don't think this problem is caused by the rules, more by the cumudgenly attitude of a section of the competitors, i am sure if the rule book was reduced to one simple rule there would still be shouted augments at the pond side.

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