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John Ball

Worls Sailing meeting agenda for possible RRS changes

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For you rules junkies and insomniacs.

Here are the rules changes that are under discussion for the 2021-2024 RRS - these are not yet approved - just being debated.

The full agenda for the WS meeting may be found at

http://www.sailing.org/meetings/2018-conference.php

and click on Papers > Submissions

and scroll down to submission 137 for the beginning of the RRS proposals. There are some interesting items and fixes.

Appendix E stuff begins at 191

John


John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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Hi Brad,

great to have your input - and I agree that the rules should take into account the needs of the small club race and not just the world championship. I think it is much easier if the Appendix E reflects the needs of everyday club racing and let the NOR/SI/International Regs set more stringent requirements for use at World and Continental Championships. To me that is better than having these stringent rules in App E, and make the national and local levels make over-rides through our NOR/SI documents.

I am not defending the Outside Help E.4.2© but it is actually a small change - replace 'race committee vessel' with 'race committee' - the rest of E4.2 remains unchanged. As E4.2 only applies while racing (a defined term), it does not prevent help, repairs and tuning advice to a boat not in the current heat.

While E4.2 does seem to prevent a competitor from helping to relaunch a grounded boat, or untangling a sheet or re-hooking a fitting during a heat, and that is not changing in the current proposals, I read one comment that the 'race committee' could be interpreted as any help from anyone 'directed' by the race committee. That may take a case in the case book to clarify.

John


John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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John Ball said:

Hi Brad,

great to have your input - and I agree that the rules should take into account the needs of the small club race and not just the world championship. I think it is much easier if the Appendix E reflects the needs of everyday club racing and let the NOR/SI/International Regs set more stringent requirements for use at World and Continental Championships. To me that is better than having these stringent rules in App E, and make the national and local levels make over-rides through our NOR/SI documents.

I am not defending the Outside Help E.4.2© but it is actually a small change - replace 'race committee vessel' with 'race committee' - the rest of E4.2 remains unchanged. As E4.2 only applies while racing (a defined term), it does not prevent help, repairs and tuning advice to a boat not in the current heat.

While E4.2 does seem to prevent a competitor from helping to relaunch a grounded boat, or untangling a sheet or re-hooking a fitting during a heat, and that is not changing in the current proposals, I read one comment that the 'race committee' could be interpreted as any help from anyone 'directed' by the race committee. That may take a case in the case book to clarify.

John

Surely it is a lot more simple and clearer to have the rule state. "competitors, support personnel and Race Committees may provide reasonable physical assistance to a boat or skipper whilst racing, this shall not include any form of tactical advice whilst the boat or skipper is racing"

Darin

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Hi Brad,

I would call myself a rules (and tactics) enthusiast (not a boffin), but I will always try to promote the needs of the grass roots sailors first and foremost.


John


John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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My understanding is that the proposed rule allows assistance to be given during a race to any boat that is disabled. This goes way beyond the previous rule and may include draining a waterlogged boat, carrying out minor repairs etc. The rule allows this assistance to be given by the race committee. The race committee includes anyone involved in running races. Nothing prevents the race committee designating people to provide assistance. In some venues this could be almost anyone, in others (reservoirs with steep banks, for instance, the RC and organisers might wish to limit these people to those wearing PFDs.


My understanding is that the initiative for this particular rule change came from radio sailors.


This is a rule that can be changed by the sailing instructions or by the national authority. It would be interesting if a different version of the rule was tested. It would be interesting to experiment allowing non competitors to assist in the launch area, to see how this works in practice. Sounds like a good idea.



It is in the nature of the rule writing process that there is a compromise between different opinions. Some radio sailors may not agree with this proposal. Others may believe it does not go far enough. In the same way, any rule change has to go through a process of approval with World Sailing. World Sailing does wish to minimise the differences in rules between different branches of sailing. This was how the 2013 rule change on outside help became much more limiting. As I remember MYA, many other national organisations, IOMICA and IRSA rapidly used SIs to delete the words 'and as a result retiring'.


We now have an Appendix E Working Party which has 3 members nominated by IRSA. As this Working Party develops its work it is to be hoped that rules changes will take account of the views and preferences of all radio sailors.


Gordon

(opinions expressed in this posting are personal opinions)

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Maybe it is time to consider do we want to remain an appendix e for ever, we could freeze the rules as is for model yachtsmen and women, and any modifications done on our schedules to suit our section of the sport, of course overseen by a representative body that understands the sport.

I very much agree with what I take from Brads comments that the rules should apply to normal circumstances with SI changes for the special events


Mike Ewart

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I believe that the rules should be the same at all levels of sailing, however the attitude of race officials should be appropriate to the level of the event. The RYA has an interesting document on this subject which is relevant and could be adapted by the MYA and IRSA.


https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Racing/RacingInformation/RaceOfficials/Resource%20Centre/Best%20Practice%20Guidelines%20Policies/RYA%20Guidance%20-%20Judging%20and%20Umpiring.pdf


Gordon

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Guest

To be perfectly honest one really cannot see the purpose in affiliation to either RYA or World Sailing.


If one takes an objecting step back one cannot find ANY similarly between Radio Sailing a 1,xx meter boat and a boat that carries persons i.e full size.


The only commonality is that both are powered by wind and float on the water.


Just as Radio Controlled Cars powered by either Battery, Petrol, or Methanol do not fall under FIA of the Motor Sport Association.


Each time I ask this question I get the same tired answer, we use World Sailing Rules and they have copyright to the rules. This is NOT entirely true and nothing stops Radio Sailing creating a simplified set of Rules applicable to Radio Sailing.


But that aside, it is IRSA who control Appendix E and hence any changes are proposed by IRSA Council. One could not imagine that the World Sailing Federation give a monkeys about the definition of outside assistance in Appendix E or indeed any of the contents of Appendix E.


So in reality it is we, Radio Sailing, who are causing or allowing the constant extension of Appendix E.


Whilst Gordon Davies is at pains to state that (opinions expressed in this posting are personal opinions)

So who better to justify a change to an existing rule if any.


He is, I understand, the Chairman of IRSA Rules Committee i.e. the very committee who will cause the rule amendments to be ratified and published.


One is certain that E4.2 Outside Help Rule is not being abused at any level of Radio Sailing and one must question the motivation for extending the Outside Assistance Rule beyond what it was intended to regulate i.e.


E4.2 Outside Help

A boat or the competitor controlling her shall not receive help from any outside source, except:-


(a) help needed as a direct result of a competitor becoming ill, injured or in danger;

Pointless, If a Competitor is unable to control his craft due to illness or injury then he is Retired from that heat


(b) when the boat is entangled with another boat, help from the other competitor;

Pointless, is the other Competitor able to walk on water or swim out the two boats and untangle them. Who cares who untangle them


© when the boat is entangled, or she is aground or in danger, help from a race committee vessel;

Generally entangled with a fence, weed , fisherman’s nets or line, mark of the course about to be stomped on by a Wind Surfer


(d) help in the form of information freely available to all competitors;


(e) unsolicited information from a disinterested source. A competitor is not a disinterested source unless acting as an observer.

The last sentence adds nothing, a competitor cannot prevent himself being pervaded with unsolicited advice / information. But he really has to decide if the information is good or not.

Not have his boat untangled by a fisherman passing by in his boat or a granny on the other bank of the pond.


So by deleting the bit underlined rather than adding it become workable and far clearer

But what we were trying to prevent was:-

A skipper receiving solicited tactical and/or boat handling advice whilst he was actually sailing in a heat.

In full size terms some one sitting on the cliff telling the skipper of a Fyn by radio to sail in or out and where the shift are.

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As a relative newcomer to RC it is the similarity in racing "full size" to something like the IOM which got me started.


And surely by suggesting there is no link between RC and normal sailing, we would be reducing or removing the greatest source of new MYA members?

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Guest

The Greatest Source of ...

Surly you are not suggesting that sailing a footie, dragon 65 or a micro magic, classes which I know you are active in, emulate sailing a craft in which you are being conveyed and working your butt off to keep going and to keep you from being unceremoniously dunked in the water.


Sailing is SPORT requiring physical stamina, resilience, strength and mental agility. Radio Sailing is a pastime requiring mental agility and the odd walk up and down.


Or are you suggestion that the reason you Radio Sail is because you are affiliated to World Sailing and if Radio Sailing was independent of World Sailing Federation you would fly quad copters in you back garden and crusade for their for their governance by the CAA.


Or do you believe that Canal Cursing should be governed by the Offshore Power Boat Federation, they both have motors and float.

Let us not forget that our governing body is the Model Yacht Association


Do you really believe that the members of the Sailing Club to which you belong to actually accept RC Sailor as equals.


We have in our midst many who once sailed dinghies of some class or other or bigger boats. By the same token some have raced 500cc motor bikes, flown commercial aircraft and some might be Lawyers, Doctors and Truck Drivers. Still there is NO relation between Radio Controlled vehicles and their full size counterparts.


But I fear, as with many, you miss the point entirely and perhaps I should spell it out.

It is my belief that the constant Appendix E rule changes are not motivated by World Sailing Federation, there are being motivated by IRSA and group who's pastime it is to administer Radio Sailing Rules and to bring their own slant upon this simple and rewarding pastime.


So even if we, as Radio Sailing , were to divorce ourselves entirely from World Sailing Federation we would simple bring those self same people with us and nothing would change for this is their pass time i.e. the Formulation and Amendment of Rules and the prestige of being a .. what ever.


By example I deleting half of E 4.2 and the meaningless sentences and the clarity was enhanced several fold.


By deleting ' where possible ' ' when practicable ' shall provide room from the rules as they stand a far better set of Radio Yacht Racing Rules would immerge. Rules which are both relevant and workable


I have spent much of my working life producing specifications, standards, codes of practice, contracts and other heavy documents and believe me I know bling when I read it, it is one of my tools.




. ..

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Somwwhere between my view that RC is an extension of sailing and yours that Sailing and Rc has nothing in common is the truth.


Wouldnt it be good to get the views of the 99% of MYA who never post on the forum?

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Guest

That is the trouble, you believe in the truth by majority, parking fines are essential to keep traffic moving, speed cameras prevent speeding, smart motorways work M6 and it is worth enduring 3 years of roadwork on the M6 between Birmingham and Liverpool. You may possibly believe that HS2 will enrich your life and is essential to Birmingham.


The 90% would do as they do now and as they will and always will do, sail their boat on Tuesdays, Wednesday or Thursday from 13:15 to 14:00 have tea then sail until 15:30 and go home. Some might even come to the AGM to buy a piece of string, have tea and nip home before the AGM gets started.


What do they or indeed I care about Outside Help or if someone else is setting his/ her sails.

But you missed the point once again

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That is the trouble, you believe in the truth by majority, parking fines are essential to keep traffic moving, speed cameras prevent speeding, smart motorways work M6 and it is worth enduring 3 years of roadwork on the M6 between Birmingham and Liverpool. You may possibly believe that HS2 will enrich your life and is essential to Birmingham.


The 90% would do as they do now and as they will and always will do, sail their boat on Tuesdays, Wednesday or Thursday from 13:15 to 14:00 have tea then sail until 15:30 and go home. Some might even come to the AGM to buy a piece of string, have tea and nip home before the AGM gets started.


What do they or indeed I care about Outside Help or if someone else is setting his/ her sails.

But you missed the point once again

 

Doesn't matter whether it is full size or RC, 90% of the sailing fraternity will only ever need to know a fraction of the RRS, and in most instances, in full size, they will only need to know port and starboard as avoiding a collision is the biggest consideration at club level. In RC we tend to feel we need to use the rules because we have more incidents and observers to note these incidents, and invariably both parties are trying to use the rules to avoid one of them having to say sorry! - old man syndrome...


As to the intricacies of the rules and the interpretations they need to be there for the 10% who will want or need to know this, usually at the top of the sport. It should also be noted that although the RRS are written in English they are used globally and provide an international standard, whether we agree with them or not. I suspect that a world of "local" rules would not be well received.

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Guest

Darin,


How about answering or at least acknowledging my e-mails of 22.10.2018 and contact on the MYA site

Or do I need to pose the question on the forum.


I need to close out that event and I cannot until you/ MYA confirm acceptance and ratify the results


I have received the BuSt auto response thfdnk you ... d%%^& etc


DAve

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Darin,


How about answering or at least acknowledging my e-mails of 22.10.2018 and contact on the MYA site

Or do I need to pose the question on the forum.


I need to close out that event and I cannot until you/ MYA confirm acceptance and ratify the results


I have received the BuSt auto response thfdnk you ... d%%^& etc


DAve

 

Afternoon David,


No email from you on the 22nd, but I did respond to Bill when he asked me about the ratification - he said he would pass this on.


I have received the RO report, thanks, should have acknowledged receipt- apologies, look forward to the financial return, copy of HMS and Trophy declaration forms to close out the event.


Darin

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Guest

The query was in he RO report. I would appreciate a FORMAL MYAS response so I can close this out .

Thank you


All document were transmitted I will check and resend if it was not received .

Dave

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On 22/10/2018 at 13:31, ianrmcdonald said:

As a relative newcomer to RC it is the similarity in racing "full size" to something like the IOM which got me started.

 

And surely by suggesting there is no link between RC and normal sailing, we would be reducing or removing the greatest source of new MYA members?

 

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 If a member of  M.Y.A. which is rock solid or any organization resigns or quits say for hundreds of reason that is his business, if there is an issue at stake it would not be un reasonable for management  to interview that person in order to find a solution.

  There are only a few links noted in the rule book between normal sailing (big boat sailing ) and model R/C sailing , I have participated in both ,ocean and round the cans .

Edited by Donald Cave
Amendment to include " in the rule "

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On 22/10/2018 at 12:34, Guest said:

To be perfectly honest one really cannot see the purpose in affiliation to either RYA or World Sailing.

 

If one takes an objecting step back one cannot find ANY similarly between Radio Sailing a 1,xx meter boat and a boat that carries persons i.e full size.

 

The only commonality is that both are powered by wind and float on the water.

 

Just as Radio Controlled Cars powered by either Battery, Petrol, or Methanol do not fall under FIA of the Motor Sport Association.

 

Each time I ask this question I get the same tired answer, we use World Sailing Rules and they have copyright to the rules. This is NOT entirely true and nothing stops Radio Sailing creating a simplified set of Rules applicable to Radio Sailing.

 

But that aside, it is IRSA who control Appendix E and hence any changes are proposed by IRSA Council. One could not imagine that the World Sailing Federation give a monkeys about the definition of outside assistance in Appendix E or indeed any of the contents of Appendix E.

 

So in reality it is we, Radio Sailing, who are causing or allowing the constant extension of Appendix E.

 

Whilst Gordon Davies is at pains to state that (opinions expressed in this posting are personal opinions)

So who better to justify a change to an existing rule if any.

 

He is, I understand, the Chairman of IRSA Rules Committee i.e. the very committee who will cause the rule amendments to be ratified and published.

 

One is certain that E4.2 Outside Help Rule is not being abused at any level of Radio Sailing and one must question the motivation for extending the Outside Assistance Rule beyond what it was intended to regulate i.e.

 

E4.2 Outside Help

A boat or the competitor controlling her shall not receive help from any outside source, except:-

 

(a) help needed as a direct result of a competitor becoming ill, injured or in danger;

Pointless, If a Competitor is unable to control his craft due to illness or injury then he is Retired from that heat

 

(b) when the boat is entangled with another boat, help from the other competitor;

Pointless, is the other Competitor able to walk on water or swim out the two boats and untangle them. Who cares who untangle them

 

© when the boat is entangled, or she is aground or in danger, help from a race committee vessel;

Generally entangled with a fence, weed , fisherman’s nets or line, mark of the course about to be stomped on by a Wind Surfer

 

(d) help in the form of information freely available to all competitors;

 

(e) unsolicited information from a disinterested source. A competitor is not a disinterested source unless acting as an observer.

The last sentence adds nothing, a competitor cannot prevent himself being pervaded with unsolicited advice / information. But he really has to decide if the information is good or not.

Not have his boat untangled by a fisherman passing by in his boat or a granny on the other bank of the pond.

 

So by deleting the bit underlined rather than adding it become workable and far clearer

But what we were trying to prevent was:-

A skipper receiving solicited tactical and/or boat handling advice whilst he was actually sailing in a heat.

In full size terms some one sitting on the cliff telling the skipper of a Fyn by radio to sail in or out and where the shift are.

 At a soccer game you can have 60,000 supporters giving advice.

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 At a soccer game you can have thousands of supporters all  at the top of their lungs shouting abuse or giving different advice. It is called freedom of speech!

Edited by Donald Cave
delete "shouting" , a duplication

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